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Archangel's avatar

Dear Evolved Psyché,

Thank you for this thought-provoking post. It prompted me to re-think my automatic rejection of the relativisation of historical collapses into changes of norms : the renaming of the "Great Invasions" into "Great Migratory Period" and the scholarly insistence on the continuity between Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages has been a polemic tool against those comparing the current high levels of immigration in Europe with the invasions at the end of the Western Roman Empire.

The set of quotes from Yoffee restates the Principle of Conservation of Peripheral Zones (literal translation from French) that states that an innovation takes place in a given zone, the centre, and propagates to proximal zones by imitation or coercion. It makes sense to use this principle for studying centralisation and the complexity of social relationships.

You state that the collapse is in the eye of the beholder. You may want to distinguish the ebb and flow of complex societies from actual collapse. Three examples of actual collapse. (1) The Mayas. One can really say that their civilisation ended in the 9th century since they never managed to regenerate before the arrival of the Spaniards. (2) Hungary was defeated by the Ottomans in 1526 and the population of the Pannonian plain underwent 150 of massive change with most existing cities destroyed, Hungarians massacred and replaced with Slavic and Jewish immigrants, marking the end of the Hungarian people and culture. The current language is an 18th century reconstruction imposed in the 19th century over reluctant population and the current Hungarian culture is almost identical to the Austro-germanic one. (3) Novgorod was a large and rich Russian city part of the Hanseatic League. It effectively stayed independent several hundred years through tens of wars. In the 15th century civil strife between the boyars, the church, and the commoners broke its strength and ended its independence. Conquered by Muscovy, its population was subsequently massacred and its culture obliterated. The collapse and destruction of Novgorod are significant for Russia because the victory of Muscovy was the victory of the despotic and Asiatic strain in Russian culture against its republican and Germanic one.

Being anglo-saxon you view the world in terms of institutions and social complexity, and conceive of collapse in terms of shifts in the cultural between spatials and temporals. This is a perfectly valid point of view for some social phenomena. However those should not be called collapses. Historical collapses without remission are numerous; and they were true tragedies for those whose society collapsed.

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daiva's avatar

Wrt footnote #1. A while back, one Theophilus Chilton did a comprehensive dissection of its introductory chapter with an eye to our times. In five parts, here’s the start --> neociceroniantimes.substack.com/p/chapter-review-after-collapse-the 👌

🗨 I read it for you all so that you don’t have to (you’re welcome).

Yes, I remember you strongly prefer original sources, and my mind helpfully serves a vivid picture of a sour frown in the general direction of secondary takes 😇

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